Friday, November 12, 2004
Oh Yeah
I forgot to mention in the last couple of posts that Yasser Arafat is dead.
Yeah and the prez says that now he will make a renewed effort to establish a Palestinian state. I really hope we can achieve this. If we are actually able to accomplish this, then I think there is a real chance that we can begin to get to the root causes of the terrorism problem.
Now speaking of that, I want to share a blog post with you from dailykos.com.
Daily Kos :: Terrorist Strategy 101: a quiz
Now I know some of you will not like some of this article, and I want to say that I don't agree with everything that this author says, BUT I do have to say that it is a well thought out, philosophical look at where we are with this war on terrorism, what is the makeup of this terrorist network, and how can we work to defeat it.
Ok stay with me on this one, I am going to take some quotes, but really you should read the entire thing, yes it is long, but I think it is worth reading. This first quote, is thinking like a terrorist.
Ok so there is much more in this article. But I will let you all read that for yourselves. Now before any of my conservative friends come screaming, once again, I do NOT agree with all that is written in this article. Especially about not striking back if we are attacked again, BUT I want to reiterate, save those things this article gives me alot of insight into the enemy that we face.
So many people asked after September 11th "Why do they hate us?" Well I hope this helps to understand that a little, because this attitude that we don't need to understand them, we should just destroy them, is ignorant. Ask the successful generals of our past, how they defeated the enemy, and I bet most of them will tell you, it was knowing the enemy, and knowing their motivations.
Well America, I think we need to know our enemy. Just simply saying they hate us for our freedom, and it is good vs evil, is NOT going to defeat this enemy in the long run.
THINK
Yeah and the prez says that now he will make a renewed effort to establish a Palestinian state. I really hope we can achieve this. If we are actually able to accomplish this, then I think there is a real chance that we can begin to get to the root causes of the terrorism problem.
Now speaking of that, I want to share a blog post with you from dailykos.com.
Daily Kos :: Terrorist Strategy 101: a quiz
Now I know some of you will not like some of this article, and I want to say that I don't agree with everything that this author says, BUT I do have to say that it is a well thought out, philosophical look at where we are with this war on terrorism, what is the makeup of this terrorist network, and how can we work to defeat it.
Ok stay with me on this one, I am going to take some quotes, but really you should read the entire thing, yes it is long, but I think it is worth reading. This first quote, is thinking like a terrorist.
"So your [assuming you are a terrorist] first goal as a violent extremist is not to kill your enemies, but to radicalize the apathetic majority on your side of the issue. If everyone becomes a violent extremist, then you (as one of the early violent extremists) are a leader of consequence. Conversely, if a reasonable compromise is worked out, you are a nuisance."Ok so that is a little set up in trying to think like they may think. I know, please don't turn me off yet.
"In radicalizing your sympathizers, who is your best ally?Ok, I know that last point may be hard to swallow, but please go with it.
No points awarded for 'the media' or 'sympathetic foreign governments'. In radicalizing your apathetic sympathizers, you have no better ally than the violent extremists on the other side . Only they can convince your people that compromise is impossible. Only they can raise your countrymen's level of fear and despair to the point that large numbers are willing to take up arms and follow your lead."
"What is Bin Laden's ultimate goal?Ok, but what about all the governments of these countries, how do they fit in?
This is an easy one. Bin Laden has been very explicit: He wants a return of the Caliphate. In other words, he wants a re-unified Islamic nation stretching from Indonesia to Morocco, governed by leaders faithful to the Koran."
"...the current rulers of the two dozen or so nations of the Dar al-Islam wouldn't want the Caliphate back. They've got a cushy deal and they know it: They run a very profitable gas station for the West. Keep the people in check, keep the price of oil low enough not to wreck the Western economies, don't piss off the United States badly enough to bring the troops in, and they're set.So this leads to the next question.
These leaders are Bin Laden's near enemies. (That list of near enemies included Saddam Hussein when he was in power.) The far enemy is the power that backs them all up: the United States. (You may look askance at the assertion that the US was backing up Saddam's Iraq. But Saddam became our enemy only when he began to unite other nations (i.e., Kuwait) under his rule. In the Reagan years, when Iran was threatening to extend its boundaries at Iraq's expense, Saddam was our friend.)"
"What is Bin Laden's immediate goal?Ok so now the big question.
If you've been paying attention, you should get this one right: His immediate goal is to radicalize the hundreds of millions of Muslims who sympathize with the vision of a restored Caliphate, but have better things to do with their lives than join the jihad. A particular problem for Bin Laden are all the Muslims who think that they can find an acceptable place for themselves in a world order dominated by the United States."
"What was the purpose of 9/11?Why to provoke a military response? Well go back to the earlier point; Bin Laden needs to radicalize his muslim sympathizers. If the muslims in the world see the United States attacking a muslim country, and unfortunately killing innocent civilians, then that would probably serve to radicalize some more people wouldn't you think?
No points for 'To intimidate the United States into retreating from the Middle East.' If the US had immediately decided to wash its hands of the Middle East, a variety of secular gangsters like Mubarak and Musharraf and Hussein would have started fighting it out amongst themselves. The odds were small that an Allah-fearing Caliph would arise from such a struggle. Whether the eventual outcome would have been good or bad for the United States is debatable, but it would have been terrible for Bin Laden.
Like all attacks in the bell-curve-inverting stage, the purpose of 9/11 was to provoke a military response."
Ok so there is much more in this article. But I will let you all read that for yourselves. Now before any of my conservative friends come screaming, once again, I do NOT agree with all that is written in this article. Especially about not striking back if we are attacked again, BUT I want to reiterate, save those things this article gives me alot of insight into the enemy that we face.
So many people asked after September 11th "Why do they hate us?" Well I hope this helps to understand that a little, because this attitude that we don't need to understand them, we should just destroy them, is ignorant. Ask the successful generals of our past, how they defeated the enemy, and I bet most of them will tell you, it was knowing the enemy, and knowing their motivations.
Well America, I think we need to know our enemy. Just simply saying they hate us for our freedom, and it is good vs evil, is NOT going to defeat this enemy in the long run.
THINK
posted by digitaljay @ 9:50 PM MST
3 Comments:
On Thu Nov 18, 11:22:00 AM MST,
digitaljay said...
digitaljay said...
Well let me try to steer this thread of discussion in the direction I originally intented.
My point was that after 9/11 the "media" was asking the question, "why do they hate us?". Which was soon answered by shrub "They hate us for our freedom." And "They are evil (we are good)."
Oh how I wish things in life were that simple, that black and white. They are NOT. And I wanted to point out that the media has failed miserably in informing the American public on just what is really happening across the globe. I believe it is this oversimplification of the problem that is the root cause of so much misunderstanding between left leaning citizens of this fine country and right leaning citizens of this fine country.
It was like a breath of fresh air that I read the original article that I quoted from. Not because I agreed with it completely. As you mention Rep Bud the not striking back when struck thing, I do not really agree with. But because I have very rarely, in the mainstream media seen a discussion such as this. But having said that, I think it is important that we begin to dissect the enemy, and learn what we are truly up against.
The simple answer, that they are crazy "evil doers" and we should just kill them all is not satisfactory. Why? Because I do not believe we can ever truly erradicate them all off of the face of this little blue planet. So as I mentioned in my post, to truly defeat an enemy, you must know the enemy.
So I was looking for a discussion on the motivations of Bin Laden, Al Quada, and others that were mentioned in the article, and for the underlying reasons that these people aim to destroy us.
And having thought that over, I wanted a real discussion on whether or not the "war on terror" is being fought in a manner which will truly make us safer. Remove all the political talking points and think about the points this article makes, whether sucessfully or not, and then gauge the war on terror in that light.
My point was that after 9/11 the "media" was asking the question, "why do they hate us?". Which was soon answered by shrub "They hate us for our freedom." And "They are evil (we are good)."
Oh how I wish things in life were that simple, that black and white. They are NOT. And I wanted to point out that the media has failed miserably in informing the American public on just what is really happening across the globe. I believe it is this oversimplification of the problem that is the root cause of so much misunderstanding between left leaning citizens of this fine country and right leaning citizens of this fine country.
It was like a breath of fresh air that I read the original article that I quoted from. Not because I agreed with it completely. As you mention Rep Bud the not striking back when struck thing, I do not really agree with. But because I have very rarely, in the mainstream media seen a discussion such as this. But having said that, I think it is important that we begin to dissect the enemy, and learn what we are truly up against.
The simple answer, that they are crazy "evil doers" and we should just kill them all is not satisfactory. Why? Because I do not believe we can ever truly erradicate them all off of the face of this little blue planet. So as I mentioned in my post, to truly defeat an enemy, you must know the enemy.
So I was looking for a discussion on the motivations of Bin Laden, Al Quada, and others that were mentioned in the article, and for the underlying reasons that these people aim to destroy us.
And having thought that over, I wanted a real discussion on whether or not the "war on terror" is being fought in a manner which will truly make us safer. Remove all the political talking points and think about the points this article makes, whether sucessfully or not, and then gauge the war on terror in that light.
Ok. Now on to the discussion at hand. As far as talking about black and white issues, and how Osama killing innocent civillians is a black and white issue, you are correct. But it misses the point. Its a point that most Republicans I know seem to have a hard time admitting, that our problems are complex and trying to make that simplistic is not a help for us to defeat our enemies, but it is doing a disservice to us all, because we are not being very thoughtful on how we can solve this conflict. We ALL need to think about how we are going to face this conflict, and to do that we need to know ALL the information. I see that you, after reading some points and, after I ask for some discussion on it, STILL revert back to putting the black and white on the portion of our history which is unequivically black and white, and ignoring the rest. Its like the old bait and switch, and the right is VERY good at it. Taking the focus away from the point which does not help them sell their point of view.
"Yes, some civilians in both countries have been killed. Last count I saw was less than 17,000 total in Iraq (max est)."
Oh, no please don't downplay civialian deaths. Just because they are not americans, on american soil doesn't mean these lives are less precious than ours. Now having said that, it is misdirection to say that the number of civilian deaths in Iraq was 17,000 MAX. Because that is not true. While you can argue that the study done by Johns Hopkins University, Columbia University, and Al-Mustansiriya University that estimated a conservative amount of 100,000 deaths is flawed. The truth is we simply DO NOT know how many Iraqi civilians have died by our hand. But to say that the max is 17,000 and neglecting the 100,000 deaths report also neglects pentagon and other estimates that had it between 10,000 and 30,000.
"What makes this truly tragic is that most (MOST!!!) of this people were put in harms way by IRAQI forces."
Once again, none of us really know this, but I am going to argue that not MOST of these deaths are from terrorists hiding in mosques and such and putting innocents in harms way. I think a good amount are people who just have the misfortune of living near a target or being on the receiving end of bad intelligence that incorrectly targets their homes, etc.
I know it is easier for Republicans, who are in power, to just try to talk down these things, but we as MORAL human beings can not and should not downplay this utter human tragedy that we are perpetuating, whether for ultimate good or not, it is still a tragedy of epic proportions.
"My point is that you cannot eradicate cockroaches by killing the ones you see. You have to destroy the nest."
So is the nest all of Iraq? That is just hamhanded.
"Yes, some civilians in both countries have been killed. Last count I saw was less than 17,000 total in Iraq (max est)."
Oh, no please don't downplay civialian deaths. Just because they are not americans, on american soil doesn't mean these lives are less precious than ours. Now having said that, it is misdirection to say that the number of civilian deaths in Iraq was 17,000 MAX. Because that is not true. While you can argue that the study done by Johns Hopkins University, Columbia University, and Al-Mustansiriya University that estimated a conservative amount of 100,000 deaths is flawed. The truth is we simply DO NOT know how many Iraqi civilians have died by our hand. But to say that the max is 17,000 and neglecting the 100,000 deaths report also neglects pentagon and other estimates that had it between 10,000 and 30,000.
"What makes this truly tragic is that most (MOST!!!) of this people were put in harms way by IRAQI forces."
Once again, none of us really know this, but I am going to argue that not MOST of these deaths are from terrorists hiding in mosques and such and putting innocents in harms way. I think a good amount are people who just have the misfortune of living near a target or being on the receiving end of bad intelligence that incorrectly targets their homes, etc.
I know it is easier for Republicans, who are in power, to just try to talk down these things, but we as MORAL human beings can not and should not downplay this utter human tragedy that we are perpetuating, whether for ultimate good or not, it is still a tragedy of epic proportions.
"My point is that you cannot eradicate cockroaches by killing the ones you see. You have to destroy the nest."
So is the nest all of Iraq? That is just hamhanded.
Ok your last post Rep Bud, is NOT a good quote from a good article.
"In sad truth, many liberals are simply repulsed at the idea that America can accomplish some good in the world, particularly with military force. This is why they're unable to take pleasure in the toppling of obscene dictatorships, even theocratic ones."
Oh this is infuriating. Now I will try to remain disassociated from you and this quote that YOU have chosen, but to say that liberals are "repulsed at the idea that America can accomplish some good..." is DISGUSTING! It is like saying that it is treasonous to speak out against this president or against his policies! It is simply a horrible thing, to question your fellow Americans patriotism, and their love for this country, because I can TELL you that I would not be writing this damn blog every day if I didn't LOVE this country with all my heart!
While I will admit up front that I did NOT read this entire article that you quote from, it is rather long, and at this hour, it is rather late, but I read the first several paragraphs. I can say that I am sickened. I wonder if this is what you really think about the other half (from you) of our country? Do you really think we are aligned with the islamist extremists? For the simple fact that some are against this war!!!!! This is disturbing.
I admit I dislike many Republicans in power, because I believe their policies are highly misguided, BUT I would NEVER question my fellow American who happens to be republican, I would never question their allegiance to this country! Why is it that you choose to read trash like the National Review Online, or even this book? If you are truly trying to bridge the gap and understand the other side, as I truly am, then how could you read this trash and quote it here?
I am truly disappointed.
"In sad truth, many liberals are simply repulsed at the idea that America can accomplish some good in the world, particularly with military force. This is why they're unable to take pleasure in the toppling of obscene dictatorships, even theocratic ones."
Oh this is infuriating. Now I will try to remain disassociated from you and this quote that YOU have chosen, but to say that liberals are "repulsed at the idea that America can accomplish some good..." is DISGUSTING! It is like saying that it is treasonous to speak out against this president or against his policies! It is simply a horrible thing, to question your fellow Americans patriotism, and their love for this country, because I can TELL you that I would not be writing this damn blog every day if I didn't LOVE this country with all my heart!
While I will admit up front that I did NOT read this entire article that you quote from, it is rather long, and at this hour, it is rather late, but I read the first several paragraphs. I can say that I am sickened. I wonder if this is what you really think about the other half (from you) of our country? Do you really think we are aligned with the islamist extremists? For the simple fact that some are against this war!!!!! This is disturbing.
I admit I dislike many Republicans in power, because I believe their policies are highly misguided, BUT I would NEVER question my fellow American who happens to be republican, I would never question their allegiance to this country! Why is it that you choose to read trash like the National Review Online, or even this book? If you are truly trying to bridge the gap and understand the other side, as I truly am, then how could you read this trash and quote it here?
I am truly disappointed.
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Name: digitaljay
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